The other day I wanted to get a clearance to get above an overcast
while in cruise. When I asked for a clearance the controller said it
would be awhile because my destination was more than 500 miles away.
He said he needed to get me a clearance all the way there even though
my intention was to cancel on top. The controller than mentioned that
he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.

-Robert

On 21 Oct 2004 14:21:35 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

>The controller than mentioned that
>he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
>clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.


What did you do? Get a clearance to a fix within his sector? Details
would be appreciated.

TIA.
z

If that happens again just ask for a local IFR clearance like you were
going to do practice approaches while IFR. As soon as you get on top
you cancel.



Robert M. Gary wrote:
> The other day I wanted to get a clearance to get above an overcast
> while in cruise. When I asked for a clearance the controller said it
> would be awhile because my destination was more than 500 miles away.
> He said he needed to get me a clearance all the way there even though
> my intention was to cancel on top. The controller than mentioned that
> he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
> clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.
>
> -Robert

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
m...
>
> The other day I wanted to get a clearance to get above an overcast
> while in cruise. When I asked for a clearance the controller said it
> would be awhile because my destination was more than 500 miles away.
>

Did you request an IFR clearance to that destination?


>
> He said he needed to get me a clearance all the way there even though
> my intention was to cancel on top.
>

Did you tell him you intended to cancel once in VFR conditions above the
clouds?


>
> The controller than mentioned that
> he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
> clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.
>

He could also give you an IFR clearance without the entire route clearance.
If you did cancel upon reaching VFR conditions above the clouds you were
never operating VFR-on-top.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message t>...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > The other day I wanted to get a clearance to get above an overcast
> > while in cruise. When I asked for a clearance the controller said it
> > would be awhile because my destination was more than 500 miles away.
> >
>
> Did you request an IFR clearance to that destination?

No, I said I need to pick up an IFR to climb above an overcast. He
asked me my dest. I told him. He said it would take 15 minutes or so
to get a clearance that far. I told him I would cancel on top. He said
it didn't make a difference he needed to get the clearance all the way
down. This was just south of SeaTac and I was going to California.
>
> >
> > He said he needed to get me a clearance all the way there even though
> > my intention was to cancel on top.
> >
>
> Did you tell him you intended to cancel once in VFR conditions above the
> clouds?

Yes

>
>
> >
> > The controller than mentioned that
> > he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
> > clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.
> >
>
> He could also give you an IFR clearance without the entire route clearance.
> If you did cancel upon reaching VFR conditions above the clouds you were
> never operating VFR-on-top.

He gave me an IFR clearance "to VFR-on-top". He said that issuing the
clearance that way allowed him to not have to wait for the clearance
to go through Oakland Center (or whatever).

Newps > wrote in message >...
> If that happens again just ask for a local IFR clearance like you were
> going to do practice approaches while IFR. As soon as you get on top
> you cancel.

I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.

He then issued me the typical to VFR-OT clearance. Climb maint...if
not on top by...etc.

-Robert

zatatime > wrote in message >...
> On 21 Oct 2004 14:21:35 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
> wrote:
>
> >The controller than mentioned that
> >he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
> >clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.
>
>
> What did you do? Get a clearance to a fix within his sector? Details
> would be appreciated.

He actually issued the clearance all the way to my dest. However, it
was a climb maintain...if not on top by... to VFR on top clearance.
Apparently if he didn't do the VFR on top in the clearance he would
have to wait for the clearance.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> zatatime > wrote in message
>...
> > On 21 Oct 2004 14:21:35 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >The controller than mentioned that
> > >he could issue me a clearance to VFR-on-top w/o the entire route
> > >clearance. I did that and it worked perfectly. I learned something.
> >
> >
> > What did you do? Get a clearance to a fix within his sector? Details
> > would be appreciated.
>
> He actually issued the clearance all the way to my dest. However, it
> was a climb maintain...if not on top by... to VFR on top clearance.
> Apparently if he didn't do the VFR on top in the clearance he would
> have to wait for the clearance.

I thought that VFR ON TOP was a segment of an IFR flight plan where you
maintain VFR cruise altitudes and visual separation until you resume IFR
altitudes and IFR separation as needed by weather or for arrival.

Here on the California coast were stratus can force an IFR departure to
about 2000ft I ask for an "IFR departure for climb to VFR conditions" with a
clearance from my field to a VOR about 20NM away. Well before I am more than
5 miles from my departure I am above the fog and can cancel IFR and ask for
VFR flight following.
Howard
C182P


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Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Newps > wrote in message >...
>
>>If that happens again just ask for a local IFR clearance like you were
>>going to do practice approaches while IFR. As soon as you get on top
>>you cancel.
>
>
> I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
> top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
> wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.
>
> He then issued me the typical to VFR-OT clearance. Climb maint...if
> not on top by...etc.

I've never used an IFR to VFR on top clearance. What are the subleties
of this? What is the clearance limit? What are the lost comm
procedures if the clearance limit isn't an airport? What if you don't
break out when you expect to find VFR?


Matt

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> Did you request an IFR clearance to that destination?
>>
>
> No, I said I need to pick up an IFR to climb above an overcast. He
> asked me my dest. I told him. He said it would take 15 minutes or so
> to get a clearance that far. I told him I would cancel on top. He said
> it didn't make a difference he needed to get the clearance all the way
> down. This was just south of SeaTac and I was going to California.
>

There's no reason he'd have to issue a clearance all the way to your
destination.


>>
>> He could also give you an IFR clearance without the entire route
>> clearance.
>> If you did cancel upon reaching VFR conditions above the clouds you were
>> never operating VFR-on-top.
>>
>
> He gave me an IFR clearance "to VFR-on-top".
>

As in "cleared to VFR-on-top" instead of "cleared to [fix]"? That's a
fairly common mistake made by inexperienced controllers. They issue
VFR-on-top in lieu of a clearance limit instead of a hard altitude.


>
> He said that issuing the
> clearance that way allowed him to not have to wait for the clearance
> to go through Oakland Center (or whatever).
>

It's no different from any other IFR clearance. If the clearance limit is
outside of his airspace he has to coordinate with another controller
somewhere. If the clearance limit is within his airspace there's nobody to
coordinate with.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
> top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
> wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.
>

He was mistaken.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> What did you do? Get a clearance to a fix within his sector? Details
>> would be appreciated.
>>
>
> He actually issued the clearance all the way to my dest. However, it
> was a climb maintain...if not on top by... to VFR on top clearance.
> Apparently if he didn't do the VFR on top in the clearance he would
> have to wait for the clearance.
>

And if you were not on top by the specified altitude, you'd have a normal
IFR clearance to your destination at that altitude, something he said he
couldn't do.

"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
. com...
>>
>> He actually issued the clearance all the way to my dest. However, it
>> was a climb maintain...if not on top by... to VFR on top clearance.
>> Apparently if he didn't do the VFR on top in the clearance he would
>> have to wait for the clearance.
>>
>
> I thought that VFR ON TOP was a segment of an IFR flight plan where you
> maintain VFR cruise altitudes and visual separation until you resume IFR
> altitudes and IFR separation as needed by weather or for arrival.
>

It is.


>
> Here on the California coast were stratus can force an IFR departure to
> about 2000ft I ask for an "IFR departure for climb to VFR conditions" with
> a
> clearance from my field to a VOR about 20NM away. Well before I am more
> than
> 5 miles from my departure I am above the fog and can cancel IFR and ask
> for
> VFR flight following.
>

In my experience, that's what most people are looking for when they request
VFR-on-top. They're issued the whole "climb to and report reaching
VFR-on-top, no tops reports, if not on top at 4000 maintain 4000 and advise"
in lieu of a hard IFR altitude. They depart, climb through the clouds,
cancel IFR, and proceed on their merry way without having operated
VFR-on-top at all.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've never used an IFR to VFR on top clearance. What are the subleties of
> this?
>

VFR-on-top is an IFR procedure. When you're VFR-on-top you must adhere to
VFR cruising altitudes and you are responsible for separation, ATC will
continue to provide traffic advisories. You are still bound to your cleared
route.


>
> What is the clearance limit?
>

Whatever fix you are cleared to. If "cleared to" was followed by
"VFR-on-top", you got a bad clearance.


>
> What are the lost comm procedures if the clearance limit isn't an
> airport?
>

While VFR-on-top? Continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as
practicable.


>
> What if you don't break out when you expect to find VFR?
>

That's where the alternative instruction comes into play. Example; "climb
to and report reaching VFR-on-top, no tops reports, if not on top at 4000
maintain 4000 and advise". You'd report that you're still in the clouds and
continue to the clearance limit at 4000, or request an alternate clearance.

> In my experience, that's what most people are looking for when they
request
> VFR-on-top. They're issued the whole "climb to and report reaching
> VFR-on-top, no tops reports, if not on top at 4000 maintain 4000 and
advise"
> in lieu of a hard IFR altitude. They depart, climb through the clouds,
> cancel IFR, and proceed on their merry way without having operated
> VFR-on-top at all.
>
Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local) are
pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx via
xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by xxxxx
maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.

Howard


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"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local)
> are
> pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx via
> xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by
> xxxxx
> maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.
>

But there should be a VFR-on-top in a VFR-on-top clearance.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local)
> > are
> > pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx
via
> > xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by
> > xxxxx
> > maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.
> >
>
> But there should be a VFR-on-top in a VFR-on-top clearance.
>
I guess my point is this is not a VFR ON TOP clearance. This is an IFR
clearance to a local waypoint with an altitude limit. If I was ever still in
IFR conditions then I am sure I would be given a vector or hold and asked
what are my intentions. Here the conditions are very predictable most of the
year. Thick stratus from near ground to 2000 ft. within couple of miles of
the coast so I always know I will break out and not have clouds inland for a
couple hundred nautical miles. If the weather along my proposed route were
predicted to be IFR then I would file and request an IFR clearance for the
entire route of flight.
Howard
>


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"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message >...
> Here on the California coast were stratus can force an IFR departure to
> about 2000ft I ask for an "IFR departure for climb to VFR conditions" with a
> clearance from my field to a VOR about 20NM away. Well before I am more than
> 5 miles from my departure I am above the fog and can cancel IFR and ask for
> VFR flight following.
> Howard
> C182P


That's the exact same thing. The phrase you used is the same as an IFR
clearance up "to VFR on top". I live in the Sacramento valley and we
get the same fog you get, but just in the winter rather than the
summer.

-Robert

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:48:09 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>> What are the lost comm procedures if the clearance limit isn't an
>> airport?
>>
>
>While VFR-on-top? Continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as
>practicable.


What if you're unable like a deck below giving 1000' or less ceilings.
Do you then use the IFR lost comm procedures?

Since you're still on an IFR flight plan and need to adhere to IFR
rules, you shouldn't get hung out to dry if something goes wrong.

I remember learning about this, but forget.

z

Howard Nelson wrote:

> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>>>Actually our local controllers (if sierra approach can be called local)
>>>are
>>>pretty much on top of this since what they issue is: "Cleared to xxxx
>
> via
>
>>>xxx departure. Climb to and maintain xxxx. If not in VFR conditions by
>>>xxxxx
>>>maintain xxxxx and report." No VFR ON TOP in their clearances.
>>>
>>
>>But there should be a VFR-on-top in a VFR-on-top clearance.
>>
>
> I guess my point is this is not a VFR ON TOP clearance. This is an IFR
> clearance to a local waypoint with an altitude limit. If I was ever still in

This seems like trouble if you lose comm prior to reaching the local
waypoint and getting further instructions. If you are in VMC, no
problem, but if you're still IMC, what are you going to do? If you
filed an IFR flight plan, you can follow that, but what if you didn't
file a flight plan for this "VFR" flight?


Matt

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:48:09 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > wrote:
>
> >> What are the lost comm procedures if the clearance limit isn't an
> >> airport?
> >>
> >
> >While VFR-on-top? Continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as
> >practicable.
>
>
> What if you're unable like a deck below giving 1000' or less ceilings.
> Do you then use the IFR lost comm procedures?
>
> Since you're still on an IFR flight plan and need to adhere to IFR
> rules, you shouldn't get hung out to dry if something goes wrong.
>
> I remember learning about this, but forget.

I would only accept non airport clearance limit if I were essentially
guaranteed that I would be VFR to the ground within 10-15 min. flying range.

Howard


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"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> What are the lost comm procedures if the clearance limit isn't an
>>> airport?
>>>
>>
>>While VFR-on-top? Continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as
>>practicable.
>>
>
> What if you're unable like a deck below giving 1000' or less ceilings.
> Do you then use the IFR lost comm procedures?
>

Of course. You are IFR, after all.

"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
m...
>
> I would only accept non airport clearance limit if I were essentially
> guaranteed that I would be VFR to the ground within 10-15 min. flying
> range.
>

What if you're IMC and ATC needs to hold you?

"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message >...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message

> Here on the California coast were stratus can force an IFR departure to
> about 2000ft I ask for an "IFR departure for climb to VFR conditions" with a
> clearance from my field to a VOR about 20NM away. Well before I am more than
> 5 miles from my departure I am above the fog and can cancel IFR and ask for
> VFR flight following.
> Howard
> C182P

I've done the same. Unfortuntely he said he could not issue a
clearance unless it was to my dest. Perhaps I could have change my
dest to some place local but that would have seemed strange when
asking to climb from 2,000 feet to 5,000 feet. Perhaps it had
something to do with the class B in the area.


-Robert

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Newps > wrote in message
>> >...
>>
>>> If that happens again just ask for a local IFR clearance like you
>>> were going to do practice approaches while IFR. As soon as you get
>>> on top you cancel.
>>
>>
>>
>> I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
>> top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
>> wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.
>>
>> He then issued me the typical to VFR-OT clearance. Climb maint...if
>> not on top by...etc.
>
>
> I've never used an IFR to VFR on top clearance. What are the subleties
> of this?

You just ask for an "IFR to VFR on top". This way we know that once in
VFR you will advise us and we will cancel your IFR and you will motor on
as a regular VFR flight.


What is the clearance limit?

That depends but we just give our own VOR and the route is vectors.

What are the lost comm
> procedures if the clearance limit isn't an airport?

Pick an approach and land.


What if you don't
> break out when you expect to find VFR?

You will be given an altitude that if you are not on top by you maintain
it and advise.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > I would only accept non airport clearance limit if I were essentially
> > guaranteed that I would be VFR to the ground within 10-15 min. flying
> > range.
> >
>
> What if you're IMC and ATC needs to hold you?
>
We have kind of a unique situation here in the Monterey bay. You are outside
of, but talking to, Class C, no nearby Class B, I (in 15 years) have never
seen fog tops above 2500 ft and never gotten clearance limit less than 3000
ft. With well maintained plane, 30 mins of battery for comms, 2 comms and 1
handheld with external antenna connection I think think the likelyhood of
losing Comm while in IMC is about that of a wing falling off.
I am talking about summertime stratus (fog) with tops usually 1000-2000 and
bottoms 100-800 feet.
Howard


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On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:19:42 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>Of course. You are IFR, after all.


Thanks.

z

"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>> What if you're IMC and ATC needs to hold you?
>>
>
> We have kind of a unique situation here in the Monterey bay. You are
> outside
> of, but talking to, Class C, no nearby Class B, I (in 15 years) have never
> seen fog tops above 2500 ft and never gotten clearance limit less than
> 3000
> ft. With well maintained plane, 30 mins of battery for comms, 2 comms and
> 1
> handheld with external antenna connection I think think the likelyhood of
> losing Comm while in IMC is about that of a wing falling off.
> I am talking about summertime stratus (fog) with tops usually 1000-2000
> and
> bottoms 100-800 feet.
>

Is your IFR flying limited to Monterey bay?

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:03:36 -0600, Newps >
wrote:

>You just ask for an "IFR to VFR on top". This way we know that once in
>VFR you will advise us and we will cancel your IFR and you will motor on
>as a regular VFR flight.

I think you're confusing VFR Over the Top with VFR On Top. VFR Over
the top is just like VFR - no IFR flight plan. On Top as I understand
it keeps your IFR flight plan in tact while operating in VFR
conditions. Basically the pilot is bound by both IFR and VFR regs but
must remain VFR.

I need to read up on this more, but this is what I remeber.

z

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>
> >> What if you're IMC and ATC needs to hold you?
> >>
> >
> > We have kind of a unique situation here in the Monterey bay. You are
> > outside
> > of, but talking to, Class C, no nearby Class B, I (in 15 years) have
never
> > seen fog tops above 2500 ft and never gotten clearance limit less than
> > 3000
> > ft. With well maintained plane, 30 mins of battery for comms, 2 comms
and
> > 1
> > handheld with external antenna connection I think think the likelyhood
of
> > losing Comm while in IMC is about that of a wing falling off.
> > I am talking about summertime stratus (fog) with tops usually 1000-2000
> > and
> > bottoms 100-800 feet.
> >
>
> Is your IFR flying limited to Monterey bay?

Nah. Occasionally I might wander as far as Las Banos.

Howard
>
>


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Newps wrote:

>
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>>> Newps > wrote in message
>>> >...
>>>
>>>> If that happens again just ask for a local IFR clearance like you
>>>> were going to do practice approaches while IFR. As soon as you get
>>>> on top you cancel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
>>> top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
>>> wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.
>>>
>>> He then issued me the typical to VFR-OT clearance. Climb maint...if
>>> not on top by...etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've never used an IFR to VFR on top clearance. What are the
>> subleties of this?
>
>
> You just ask for an "IFR to VFR on top". This way we know that once in
> VFR you will advise us and we will cancel your IFR and you will motor on
> as a regular VFR flight.

OK. Although, I assume you could just stay on the IFR flight plan,
though, right? If you plan to cancel, wouldn't asking for IFR to VFR
"over" the top be a more appropriate request? That clearly implies that
you plan to complete the flight under VFR.


Matt

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
> wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:03:36 -0600, Newps >
>wrote:
>
>>You just ask for an "IFR to VFR on top". This way we know that once in
>>VFR you will advise us and we will cancel your IFR and you will motor on
>>as a regular VFR flight.
>
>I think you're confusing VFR Over the Top with VFR On Top. VFR Over
>the top is just like VFR - no IFR flight plan. On Top as I understand
>it keeps your IFR flight plan in tact while operating in VFR
>conditions. Basically the pilot is bound by both IFR and VFR regs but
>must remain VFR.
>
>I need to read up on this more, but this is what I remeber.
>
>z


I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
a good thing.)

The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
flighjt originated VFR and will continue VFR once through the layer.
Receiving a clearance for ...on top while on an IFR flight would not
cancel the already filed IFR flight plan since the flight is to be
conducted under IFR rules (just on top).

I hope I worded this well enough to make sense to someone other than
myself.

z

zatatime wrote:

>
> I think you're confusing VFR Over the Top with VFR On Top.

No, I'm not.


VFR Over
> the top is just like VFR - no IFR flight plan.

Right, but in the case we are discussing you need an IFR clearance to
get to the VFR conditions. That clearance is IFR to VFR on top.


On Top as I understand
> it keeps your IFR flight plan in tact while operating in VFR
> conditions.

Yes but the poster wants a clearance to get thru the clouds and then
cancel IFR altogether. Very common in coastal areas or areas where fog
is common. Rare in other places.


Basically the pilot is bound by both IFR and VFR regs but
> must remain VFR.

Among other rules.


>
> I need to read up on this more, but this is what I remeber.
>

We do a lot of VFR on Top here. They use it as a way to stay low
westbound into the winter winds.

Matt Whiting wrote:


> OK. Although, I assume you could just stay on the IFR flight plan,
> though, right?

Sure, you will be given an altitude to maintain if you don't break out.
Here at BIL we just use the top of our airspace, 12,000.


If you plan to cancel, wouldn't asking for IFR to VFR
> "over" the top be a more appropriate request?

Not technically although it will probably get your point across.

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
> > wrote:
>
>
> I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
> for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
> a good thing.)
>
> The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
> flighjt originated VFR

No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules. At
our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that it
is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance as a
"pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep us
in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break through
the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside the
sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is processed.

>and will continue VFR once through the layer.
> Receiving a clearance for ...on top while on an IFR flight would not
> cancel the already filed IFR flight plan since the flight is to be
> conducted under IFR rules (just on top).
>
> I hope I worded this well enough to make sense to someone other than
> myself.
>
> z
Howard
C182P


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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:25:21 GMT, "Howard Nelson"
> wrote:

>> The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
>> flighjt originated VFR
>
>No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules. At
>our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that it
>is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance as a
>"pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep us
>in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break through
>the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside the
>sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is processed.


This was for a clearance to a VFR flight in progress wanting a
clearance through a layer and continued flight VFR. Your statements
are true for ground initiation, but this is for somethong already in
progress, therefore the flight will be bound by IFR rules from the
time cleared 'till the time on top.

I was trying to correct a previous statement. This may help sort it
out: >

z

"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "zatatime" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
>> for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
>> a good thing.)
>>
>> The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
>> flighjt originated VFR
>
> No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules. At
> our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that it
> is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance as a
> "pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep us
> in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break through
> the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside the
> sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is processed.
>

What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you lose comm?

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "zatatime" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
> >> for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
> >> a good thing.)
> >>
> >> The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
> >> flighjt originated VFR
> >
> > No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules.
At
> > our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that
it
> > is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance
as a
> > "pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep
us
> > in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break
through
> > the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside
the
> > sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is
processed.
> >
>
> What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
lose comm?

See earlier posts. Here at WVI I am talking about a summer fog layer with
the tops always below 3000 ft and usually the nearest clouds in afternoon
convective activity over the Sierras 150NM away. As another poster mentioned
this (almost daily) fog from June to Oct. must be somewhat an anomaly. I
jokingly refer to my IFR ticket as my "fog license". The nice thing about
fog is the smooth, predictable tops. The bad thing is the irregular,
unpredictable ceiling.
Howard
>
>


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"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
> lose comm?

Whatever you think is best.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0604.html

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
>>lose comm?
>
>
> Whatever you think is best.
>
> http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0604.html
>
>

That brings up the age old question about following procedure vs. using
judgment. For example, if I've just departed ELM for say BOS and lose
comm on climbout, procedure would have me fly to BOS, assuming I don't
encounter VMC along the way. However, if I know that I have minimums or
better at ELM, I'd be inclined to shoot an approach there and get back
on the ground at my home drome and not be in the system for 1.5 hours
and flying into a fairly busy airport NORDO. I'd also think you ATC
folks would rather I do that as well, but I suspect that if anything at
all went wrong while doing this, the FAA would be likely to bust me for
not following the prescribed procedure.

I'm assuming that a successful outcome could be justified using the
"good judgment" clause referenced above, however, it does suggest that
good judgment only comes into play for cases NOT covered by the procedures.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
>>>lose comm?
>>>
>>
>> Whatever you think is best.
>>
>> http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0604.html
>>
>
> That brings up the age old question about following procedure vs. using
> judgment. For example, if I've just departed ELM for say BOS and lose
> comm on climbout, procedure would have me fly to BOS, assuming I don't
> encounter VMC along the way. However, if I know that I have minimums or
> better at ELM, I'd be inclined to shoot an approach there and get back on
> the ground at my home drome and not be in the system for 1.5 hours and
> flying into a fairly busy airport NORDO. I'd also think you ATC folks
> would rather I do that as well, but I suspect that if anything at all went
> wrong while doing this, the FAA would be likely to bust me for not
> following the prescribed procedure.
>

I would explain that I had a complete communications failure for unknown
reasons and that while my navigational radios were functioning, I wasn't
sure how long they would continue to do so. To avoid a possible loss of
navigational capability in IMC I used the emergency authority granted me by
FAR 91.3 to deviate from FAR 91.185.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message et>...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
> >>
> >> Did you request an IFR clearance to that destination?
> >>
> >
> > No, I said I need to pick up an IFR to climb above an overcast. He
> > asked me my dest. I told him. He said it would take 15 minutes or so
> > to get a clearance that far. I told him I would cancel on top. He said
> > it didn't make a difference he needed to get the clearance all the way
> > down. This was just south of SeaTac and I was going to California.
> >
>
> There's no reason he'd have to issue a clearance all the way to your
> destination.

Could this have anything to do with the fact that Seattle ATC just got
those fancy new enroute computer systems we've been reading about?
-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> There's no reason he'd have to issue a clearance all the way to your
>> destination.
>>
>
> Could this have anything to do with the fact that Seattle ATC just got
> those fancy new enroute computer systems we've been reading about?
>

No.